Any chance to support Windows NT4 for retro gaming, its limited to DirectX3/5, OpenGL is working fine?

[William]

Hi this is MicahMoo11, does this work with GDI (opengl 2.1) software rendering. as I am testing mostly TLC games. some examples https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/ ... drive_link, to my understanding 3d processing rendering and 2d processing rendering are different. is DXGL hardcoded for GL 2.1 hardware or can this work with VMware as long as it reads features from the instructions GDI 2.1 (although it will be slow on FPS). another example 2 days ago by mistake. https://github.com/FunkyFr3sh/cnc-ddraw ... 3011096984. yes, it's showing windows 7 (software rendering 4.3) even NT 4-2000 is working thru GDI 2.1.

https://github.com/FunkyFr3sh/cnc-ddraw/issues/327
https://github.com/FunkyFr3sh/cnc-ddraw ... 3011744223 (NT4dx9.zip update)

even mean project https://github.com/FunkyFr3sh/cnc-ddraw/issues/316. the games are being backported to windows NT 4. cnc-ddraw does support OpenGL 1.0 - 1.5 although FunkyFr3sh has to make separate branches (not public yet) and Direct3d is not supported although some were ported for my game applications. can you clarify the difference between FunkyFr3sh / cnc-ddraw vs William's / DXGL. (your project)
some calcification is needed as I'm testing about 650 educational games mostly and kids' games from the late 90's and early 2000s.

DXGL will never support any OpenGL version below 2.0 due to its design. Everything is done using GLSL shaders, which became core in 2.0 and refined in later versions. Supporting anything below 3.2 relies on hacks too, especially moving forward with the future 0.6 branch.

[MicahMoo11]

windows nt 4 does support GLSL shaders 1.10 by default, & 1.20 disabled due to GDI mode 2.1 related issues that even FunkyFr3sh is struggling for performance, so I will assume that it works but it will be slow. here is my next question is it 1.30, to my knowledge 1.30 does not exist at all in virtualization. It does exist in windows xp x86. although people told me with hacks you can force GLSL shaders 1.3 under windows 2000. NT 4 not worth it. If this is the case that it is GLSL shaders 1.3 added support for DXGL will be a technical nightmare. I do get emails almost every week. as technically it is a public project.

[MicahMoo11]

ok i looked at the requirements from here https://github.com/dxgldotorg/dxgl?tab= ... ile#readme (I can't see why it won't work)

OpenGL 2.0 or higher compatible video card
Requires support for Framebuffer objects
Requires support for hardware accelerated non-power-of-two textures

back to for DXGL once has NT 4 build is released, I will test with no 3d acceleration. 2 things might happen 1 it works but very slow software rendering. Or 2 it will crash despite supporting GL_SHADING_LANGUAGE_VERSION: 1.20 although disabled for 1.10 due to Wanting Hardware Mode.

[ruthan]

Ok i still have time to setup NT OpenGL 2.0 machine, so far i have only OpenGL 1.x one.
One machine has only PCI and PCI/X slots, im currently using Geforce 2 MX there what is only OpenGL 1.2, i have Geforce FX 5500 pci, regarding of techpowerup it has OpenGL 1.5 and particial OpenGL 2.0 support, if any on NT4.
https://www.techpowerup.com/gpu-specs/g ... 00-pci.c62
Regarding of Nvidia OpenGL 2.0, Geforce FX (5) should be supported, but we will see:
https://http.download.nvidia.com/develo ... upport.pdf
- in this document is also section about OpenGL 2.0 emulation in software for testing purpouses

I have other machine in works its Dell server converted to retro gaming machine, it has PCI-E slots, i have Geforce 6xxx PCI-E for it and installed NT already, but i had to by some heatsink for second cpu - its 2x 2 core cpus.

I have also machine with Geforce 6xxx KVM with Windows 9x, create another virtual HDD with NT4 should not be complicated too.

I have other hardware around to build another NT4 test bench too.

But there are other people too and i expect that some basic testing, like missing calls, i could test with PCem or current state of machines.

BTW do you know this project? There is source code its from Glview authors:
https://sourceforge.net/projects/dxglwr ... /dxglwrap/

Otherwise we added a quite a lot of random info to thread already linked above, it could be handy for you too:
https://github.com/orgs/LegacyUpdate/di ... on-8290925

[William]

GeForce FX series won't be supported due to hardware limitations and cheating OpenGL 2.0 support, as I demonstrated at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JuYzI98ldQ4

This is further explained at https://www.khronos.org/opengl/wiki/NPO ... r_hardware

[ruthan]

That is not nice from Nvidia, or so it emas only Geforce 6xxx and Quadro cards below.

Regarding of this https://www.techpowerup.com/gpu-specs/? ... generation these are Geforce 6 based, if Quadro driver will not work you can find Quadro with same specs and force Geforce driver, these are also usually cheaper that real Geforces - have low profile variants, PCI-E 1x slot variant etc:
Quadro NVS 285, Quadro NVS 440, Quadro FX 550
there even last resort - probably still better than virtualization GeForce 6200 for PCI bus.

[ruthan]

3Dfx
- cards are Opengl 1 or 1.1 so no go for sure.

ATI:
Fire GL 1/2/3 - are Openg Gl 1.2 - no go
Radeon 7000 to 9000/9200 - OpenGL 1.4 - no go
Radeon 9600 - 9800, they are Open GL 2.0 ,but i my memory serves, i never made Direct3D or OpenGL working on them with NT4, there has to be some trick to make them work, or 3D support its stubbed.

There is supposed to be working NT4 driver for Radeon 9700 from HIS: // But my guess is that is the same 2D only driver (untested)
https://www.pcreview.co.uk/threads/rade ... 0.2978058/
https://alt.comp.periphs.videocards.ati ... ows-nt-4-0

I had even problem with Radeon 7000 and OpenGL on NT4: // Unsolved
https://msfn.org/board/topic/186764-rad ... king-fine/

Matrox
- had always bad OpenGL support and even Millennium G550 - has only OpenGL 1.5 - so not go.

[ruthan]

I tried (some could still be missing, but 80% card is there and like 95% of cards from market point of view, only rare cards could be missing) to made list of all desktop cards, i nad not enough energy and knowledge to add mobile (laptop) cards, maybe someone else could do it..
Its on NT4-Videocards-MaxSupportedDX+OpenGL-versions - sheet.

Summary is that except Geforce 6xxx card, these quadro cards should have OpenGL 2.0 (regarding of TechpowerUp GPU database date), at least the had it for some OS and there is NT4 driver for these cards, its the same driver as for Geforce card, so i would say that is very probably that it will work.

Winners are:
Quadro NVS 285
Quadro NVS 440
Quadro FX 540
Quadro FX 550
Quadro FX 1400
Quadro FX 3400/4400
Quadro FX 3450/4000

Some of are still cheap trash from old workstations.
Naming is messy for example Quadro NVS 280 SD AGP =! Quadro NVS 280 PCIe